Are Necron Ships Overpowered?

[Yurrath (aka Rezzy)]

I have heard people say that the Necrons have been made too powerful in Battlefleet Gothic...do you think they are?
I personally have never seen them used in a game of BFG so I wouldn't know...

[Spiritbw]

Despite many attempts to prove otherwise I have to say that yes they are too powerful for BFG. GW screwed up a bit in trying to address the balance by making it so that Necron ships cost more victory points when defeated rather than tuning back thier weapons. The only way you could beat a Necron fleet as it now stands is if the person you are playing is a newbie and isnt aware of the strengths and weaknesses and how to counter act them. In the hands of anyone that has studied thier rules and played even one game with them it would become pretty much impossible without luck of the dice being totatly on your side. The only way you could get a remotely fair fight would be if you went 2:1 on points for any fleet facing them.Here are a few of the problems as I see it.

One is the lightning field that Necron Scythe class ships have. This weapon is omni-directional and does one automatic hit to anything within that range of the ship. Not bad if you have only one but any commander worth his salt tends to have two and keeps them together. This way thier fields overlap meaning they strip the shields from almost all capitol ships of other races and outright destroy all escorts, ditto for any ordance. The range is enough that it will make pretty much all escorts useless.

Two is the FTL system they have. Because they stay in real space they can use this when doing All Ahead Full. What this means is that they travel as much as 90 cm in the course of a AAF move plus they are allowed a turn so many cm because of this drive. As Necrons have a high and level leadership they can do special orders easily. This means that attempts to isolate weaker ships are just about impossible as the ship mearly jumps away from it's attackers. Sperading out your fleet to catch them is a bad idea because they can use this same rule to concentrate thier fleet in one area rather easily.

Three, thier ships have the highest level of armour all round. Not bad and definatly in keeping with the fluff....untill you consider the FTL drive they have with it. An smaller class of ship gets a plus to hit when ramming a larger ship. You do a FFA move to ram. Necrons can turn hence neatly sidestepping high armoured arcs and hitting the ligher areas and have the range to do so in the first turn on most standard size boards. Think really nimble, really fast Ork ramships and you get the idea. I lost nearly half my cruisers this way one time to a couple flights of escorts.

Four, each Necron cruiser can make three teleport attacks. Remember what I said about keeping two cruisers together so they can strip shields from any ship? Imagine six possible critical hits every turn. Two turns and pretty much any one cruiser will be a drifting hulk.

Long and short, harder to bring to battle than Eldar. Better able to soak the damage when you do. Better leadership than any other race in the game. Better at raming than the Orks purpose built ships. Better all round fire than anyone else. The only seeming drawback they have is that Necrons don't have any ordance at all.

[Yurrath (aka Rezzy)]

Spiritbw said:

Despite many attempts to prove otherwise I have to say that yes they are too powerful for BFG. GW screwed up a bit in trying to address the balance by making it so that Necron ships cost more victory points when defeated rather than tuning back thier weapons. The only way you could beat a Necron fleet as it now stands is if the person you are playing is a newbie and isnt aware of the strengths and weaknesses and how to counter act them. In the hands of anyone that has studied thier rules and played even one game with them it would become pretty much impossible without luck of the dice being totatly on your side. The only way you could get a remotely fair fight would be if you went 2:1 on points for any fleet facing them.Here are a few of the problems as I see it.

One is the lightning field that Necron Scythe class ships have. This weapon is omni-directional and does one automatic hit to anything within that range of the ship. Not bad if you have only one but any commander worth his salt tends to have two and keeps them together. This way thier fields overlap meaning they strip the shields from almost all capitol ships of other races and outright destroy all escorts, ditto for any ordance. The range is enough that it will make pretty much all escorts useless.

Two is the FTL system they have. Because they stay in real space they can use this when doing All Ahead Full. What this means is that they travel as much as 90 cm in the course of a AAF move plus they are allowed a turn so many cm because of this drive. As Necrons have a high and level leadership they can do special orders easily. This means that attempts to isolate weaker ships are just about impossible as the ship mearly jumps away from it's attackers. Sperading out your fleet to catch them is a bad idea because they can use this same rule to concentrate thier fleet in one area rather easily.

Three, thier ships have the highest level of armour all round. Not bad and definatly in keeping with the fluff....untill you consider the FTL drive they have with it. An smaller class of ship gets a plus to hit when ramming a larger ship. You do a FFA move to ram. Necrons can turn hence neatly sidestepping high armoured arcs and hitting the ligher areas and have the range to do so in the first turn on most standard size boards. Think really nimble, really fast Ork ramships and you get the idea. I lost nearly half my cruisers this way one time to a couple flights of escorts.

Four, each Necron cruiser can make three teleport attacks. Remember what I said about keeping two cruisers together so they can strip shields from any ship? Imagine six possible critical hits every turn. Two turns and pretty much any one cruiser will be a drifting hulk.

Long and short, harder to bring to battle than Eldar. Better able to soak the damage when you do. Better leadership than any other race in the game. Better at raming than the Orks purpose built ships. Better all round fire than anyone else. The only seeming drawback they have is that Necrons don't have any ordance at all.

They do seem far too over-powered, I don't think I'd want to face them (although I would once, just to see for myself).
Does the lightning field destroy ordnance? If not, I'd use an offensive-defense tactic, using torpedoes to control the movements of the Necron ships, while keeping them away from me with lots of attack craft.
Escorts don't sound like their worth it, although powerful weapons platforms (like the...Eldar Hemlocks? (the one with the forward -facing pulsar lance) and the Imperial Firestorms might come in handy to prevent any flanking attempts...

How often have you fought them?

[Spiritbw]

Faced them three times. Twice by the same guy, once by store staff. Yes the lightning field kills ordance, which means you basicly have to try and slug it out.

[Yurrath (aka Rezzy)]

Spiritbw said:

Faced them three times. Twice by the same guy, once by store staff. Yes the lightning field kills ordance, which means you basicly have to try and slug it out.

I see...well then I guess I'd be using Lances and Nova Cannons!

[Spiritbw]

Not sure how well Nova Cannons would work. Depends I suppose on wiether they decide to use that insane speed to close to under the range or not. LAnces work well but if he goes to brace for impact it's hard. Plus BFI doesn't reduce weapons below one, like the lightning field, nor effect teleport attacks.

[Spiritbw]

Okay, just got through reading the FAQ for the Necron fleet. They probably aren't as overppowered as I originally thought, just a player who might have used a few abilities when he shouldn't have.

I think I need a rematch.....

[warmonger]

Are Necrons in BFG overpowered? Not by a long shot! As a matter of fact, they pack less punch point for point than EVERY other fleet in the game.

Yes, they have many advantages to them; let me adress some of that...

Lightning Arcs always count ships as closing. So what? No one complains about the Eldar fleet doing the same thing.

Brace For Impact gives them a 2+ save. As a Necron player, I rarely use BFI. Why? Because it takes your already low total weapons and halves them. Your standard cruiser (Scythe Class Harvest Ship) has a Lightning Arc of 8, which becomes a 4.

Necrons have no shields. This makes them VERY susceptible to Lance shots. When an average Necron player knows you're about to hit him with a bunch of lances, he's going to go on BFI. THEN you hit him with your weapon batteries. Why do it in reverse of the standard tactic against other ships? Because when he is on BFI a Necron ships armour rating drops to a 4+. Sure he still has a 2+ save, but when you are suddenly hitting him with three times more shots than you were before, he's gonna be rolling more 1s.


I could go on and on but its late.... So I'll sum it up with one easy statement when someone says that my fleet is overpowered.....

"Fine, take my Necron fleet and give me yours. I'll still kick your ass."

[kais]

Some good points made by all.
I would only add that when you play a campaign ( where for me the real fun is to be found in B.F.G.) the Necrons are raiders so you generally out number them anyway

[Wargamer]

My primary dislike for Necrons lies in their "lol Eldar sux!" attitude.

They have no right to just ignore Holofields the way they do. I mean, if they ignored shields everyone would be screaming hatred toward the beardy sods, but for some reason denying a 4+ save, critted on 4+ Eldar vessel the only protection is has is acceptable...

I think not. If Eldar can't negate their own bloody Holofields, then Necrons can't either!

[Ravager Zero]

Wargamer, I thought Holo-fields were 2+ (going by the BFG rulebook and Armada)
Or is there some update I'm unaware of that reduces them to 4+?

[Yurrath (aka Rezzy)]

They are 2+.
But I think WG meant that damage to an Eldar vessel goes critical on a 4+ as opposed to the usual 6+, which means one point of damage can cripple an unlucky Eldar player (ie. me ).

[Wargamer]

Yes. I mean that Eldar have 4+ armour (hit on 4+), and are critted on 4+. As such, the only protection they have is the Holofield.

[lorddemon]

Well, necron weaponry does skip shields. Not all the time, but on 6:s. But as I read it, think that is how it is against the holofields too, so it is the same. As for WB, the "always count as closing" is more a thread then skipping the one column shift from holofield. It causes max 2 shifts to the left, while holofields only cause one to the right, so parking sideways loses lot of it's power.

And Eldar have another defensive benefit: Movement. The ability to be in range and fire, and then move to location where the opponent can't shoot is a big bonus. This is even more efffective if there is "terrain" on board.

Now, as for Eldar vs. Necron specially, they have different approach:
Eldar are nimble, and hit hard, where as Necrons are fast and hit dangerously.

Eldar fleet will, if not trying to run distance, out manouver any fleet with moves up to 60 and two turn up to 180 degrees. Necrons are fast, with cruisers at 30 cm and escorts up to 50 cm movement. with the special AAF, they can out run pretty much everything. Their' weakness is actually their speed: Harassed by Necron escorts on close range at rear? move minimum, and see how the 25cm move forces them to over shoot, right in front of your guns. Or they might take distance, which puts them few turn out of game. Or burn retroes, and fire at half.

As for weaponry, Eldar hit hard: WB always count as closing, ordnance re-rolls to hit or number of attacks, and pulsar lances shooting up to three times. This is further enforced by heavy use of escorts in Eldar fleets, as escorts are heavily gunned compared to capital ships. So Eldar fleet has lot of fire to put out.
Necron on the other hand have less, but it is all dangerous: Lightning arcs treat everything as closing, so the necron 8WB can in some cases be equal to imperial 14WB. Gauss particle whip on the other hand will always risk penetrating the shields, so firing any ship on one risks damage. There is no "safe zone" of two hits (statistically 4 lances) against cruisers with 2 shields. You always risk damage from the necrons.

As for other down sides, the Eldar have two, necrons 3
Eldar have weak ships, and expensive ships. They have less, and they can take less damage. This is balanced by better maneuverability and increased firepower. They can overwhelm opponent locally, and they can put out lot of damage to supress or destroy target to avoid return fire.

Necrons have three down sides, expensive ships, lack of "safe zone" when taking in damage and the VP rules that cause them to avoid damages. Necron ships are even more expensive then Eldar, so they are even more outnumbered. The lack of ablative shielding causes them to be also in trouble when it comes to taking damage: Sporadic lance fire can make much damage against necrons. Ad-Mech fleet with each cruiser having a 1 60 cm L/F/R lance is quite a nightmare. Every shot has chance of going through the defences, but bracing will cause the ships to lose the valuable firepower. And last, any damage will cost in VP, that can quickly damage the game.

In all, necrons are not that overpowered.
Not any more so then any other race. (save maybe orks)

Last, Here is one thing I want to run throught everyone:
You shoot WB first, lances second. Even for Necrons. (Tomb ship doesn't matter)
The reason is simple: Odds to hit are better.

Think about it:
Shooting WB at normal necron escorts means 6+ to hit, and 6+ save, right?
So to damage, odds are 1/6*5/6, or 5/36
Shooting WB at braced necron escorts means 4+ to hit, and 2+ save, right?
So to damage, odds are 3/6*1/6, or 3/36

For Cruiser (armor 6+, 5+ save), it is 1/6*4/6=4/36 or 3/6*1/6=3/36
For tombships (armor 6+, 4+ save) it is 1/6*3/6=4/36 or 3/6*1/6=3/36

As long as the opponent braces at the end (and with only lances coming in they should) you win.

[enderwiggin]

You know, I don't see why people insist that Necrons are balanced in BFG.

Even while braced Necrons have some of the best weapons available.
Point-for-point they are better than nearly ay ship out there.

With lethal weapons, speed, and the best defensive ability in the game taking one single ship out if usually a horrible chore.

One thing everyone seems to forget, is that Necrons don't have 6+ armor and (insert base shield save number) that turns into 4+/2+...

BFI only modifies that special shield save! You still get the original 4+ BFI roll! So, defense-wise, even a lowly escort turns into a 4+/2+/4+! That kind of defense is utterly broken and unbalanced. With their agility and speed it's likely that only Eldar can keep up with them, luckily ( ) game designers felt fit to give the Necrons a host of anti-Eldar equipment.

The supposed "weaknesses" are overshadowed by their bolstered abilities.
1) No Ordnance- That's fine, we still have weapons that ignore shields and the speed to get them there in the first turn. Our speed protects us against the majority of it, while other armies ordnance falls to some of our gear.

2) Slightly lower WB strengths- That's fine too, because our weapons can split fire and take advatage of nearly any firing angle the enemy ship is in our WB's are worth twice what a normal ship's would be

3) No shields- BS... Pure and simple, Necrons have the best defensive capability in the game. See above.

4) Weak to boarding actions- True they would be weak...Again were you to catch them. Want to know the ratio needed for Eldar Craftworld ships with Aspect warriors or DE ships? 3 to 1 Crusier ratios, sounds fair eh?

5) VP buff- Yeah, well this is true...Provided you actually down the ships to begin with. Otherwise a defeated fleet is a defeated fleet no matter if you got a third of his points with the (maybe) one capital ship you took out.

There's more if you want to sift through Warseer's BFG forum, sadly the SG forum is gone, but they backed up my point with another 50+ pages of comments.

My suggestions to balance Necrons out?
Double the cost of every ship, Ignore the standard BFI 4+ roll, restrict Tombships to one for every 4 Scythes taken. Remove those ridiculously fake VP restrictions.

There you go. Simple and now they're actually balanced.